Pre - Mix 101

All Engine, Clutch, Chains, and Sprockets Stuff Here.
User avatar
AlisoBob
"Hoon-father"
Posts: 15404
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 6:39 pm
Location: Aliso Viejo Ca

Pre - Mix 101

Post by AlisoBob »

Post by Spanky :


Any of you that believe that spooge is caused by too much oil in the mix are flat out wrong. If you know how to jet, you can run any amount of oil you choose, and have absolutely zero spooge.

Looks like it's time for a little pre-mix 101. I don't usually get into ratio discussions, because mix ratios are like religions to most people, and they tend to be closed-minded and hard-headed on the subject, but I'll put in my $.02 here anyway.

There is a prevailing myth that less oil is better, and that the oil in the fuel is what lubricates the engine. And there is also a very common belief that spooge is caused by too much oil in the fuel mix. Both are wrong. The engine is lubricated by the residual oil that builds up in the crankcase. All the oil in the fuel does is replenish this oil. And spooge is caused by rich jetting.

When an engine is jetted too rich, the excess fuel leeches heat from the combustion process, causing the combustion chamber temperatures to be too low to effectively burn the oil, or even completely burn all of the fuel. The result is spooge and deposits. The spooge is nothing more than unburned fuel and oil passing out the exhaust.

If you have a spooge problem, you have a jetting problem. You don't get rid of the spooge by reducing the oil, you get rid of it by fixing the jetting. Correct jetting will produce an air/fuel ratio of about 14:1, which will produce combustion temperatures in the 1200 degree range. This will provide sufficient heat to consume the premix oil.

You don't choose a mix ratio based on "spooge", you choose the ratio based on the amount of oil your engine needs to provide sufficient protection and adequate ring seal. The common misconception is that mix ratios are "one-size-fits-all", when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.The amount of oil that is correct for one rider on his bike may not be enough oil for another rider/bike, or it may be too much oil. It all depends on engine displacement, riding style, and how hard you push the engine.

The best way to determine if you are running enough oil is to check the level of the residual oil in the crankcase. If the ratio you run leaves enough residual oil in the crankcase to cover about 1/8" of the bottom of the crank wheels, then you are fine. If you don't have that much residual oil in your crankcase when you pull the top-end off, you aren't running enough oil for your riding style and conditions.

With that said, to have that amount of residual oil in the crankcase at 50:1 (a ratio made popular by magazines and oil bottles), you can't be riding very hard, or your bike is jetted richer than necessary simply to deliver enough oil. I arrived at 26:1 for my bike with my riding style because that is the amount that gives me the proper amount of residual build-up. Small-bore engines require greater oil concentrations than larger engines to achieve the proper amount of residual build-up, because they rev higher and have higher intake velocities. Along the same lines, someone that pushes the engine harder, and keeps the revs higher, also needs to use higher oil concentrations to achieve the proper residual build-up.

To understand why the residual oil is so important, you have to understand what happens to the oil in your fuel when it goes into the engine. While the oil is still suspended in the liquid gasoline, it can not lubricate anything. It has about as much lubricity at that point as straight gasoline. When the gasoline enters the engine, it evaporates, dropping the oil out of suspension. Now that the oil is free, it can lubricate the engine, but it must get to the parts to lubricate them. The way it gets to the bearings and onto the cylinder is by being thrown around by the spinning crankshaft, and being distributed through the engine by the air currents moving through the crankcase. The main bearings are lubed by some of this oil dripping down through tiny "drip passages" in the cases above the bearing pockets.

People believe that the oil just rushes right through a two-stroke along with the fuel, but that just isn't so. It can take 90 minutes or more for the oil migration through a two-stroke to result in a complete oil exchange.

The oil eventually makes it into the combustion chamber, where it is either burned, or passes out the exhaust. If the combustion chamber temps are too low, such as in an engine that is jetted too rich, the oil doesn't burn completely. Instead, some of it hardens into deposits in the combustion chamber, on the piston, and on the power valve assembly. The rest becomes the dreaded "spooge". The key to all of this working in harmony is to jet the bike lean enough to achieve a high enough combustion chamber temperature to burn the oil, but also still be able to supply enough oil to protect the engine. If you use enough oil, you can jet the bike at it's optimum without starving the engine of oil, and have excellent power, with minimal deposits and spooge. At 50:1, you simply can't jet very lean without risking a seized engine due to oil starvation.

With the high oil concentrations that I use, I tend to get far more life from my cranks and rings than most of my friends that run leaner oil ratios. The high oil content also produces better ring sealing, so more of the combustion pressure is retained.

One small point. No one ever broke an engine by using too much oil.

Now we come to the issue of ring seal. Simply put, the rings alone can not effectively seal the cylinder. They also need oil to provide a complete seal against the bore surface. And up to a point, more oil will provide a better seal.

I have run Dyno tests on this subject, as a school project in Tech School. We used a Dynojet dynamometer, and used a fresh, broken in top-end for each test. We used specially calibrated jets to ensure the fuel flow was identical with each different ratio, and warmed the engine at 3000 rpm for 3 minutes before each run. Our tests were performed in the rpm range of 2500 to 9000 rpm, with the power peak of our test bike (an '86 YZ 250) occuring at 8750 rpm. We tested at 76 degrees F, at 65% relative humidity. We started at 10:1, and went to 100:1. Our results showed that a two-stroke engine makes its best power at 18:1. Any more oil than that, and the engine ran poorly, because we didn't have any jets rich enough to compensate for that much oil in the fuel. The power loss from 18:1 to 32:1 was approximately 2 percent. The loss from 18:1 to 50:1 was nearly 9 percent. On a modern 250, that can be as much as 4 horsepower. The loss from 18:1 to 100:1 was nearly 18 percent. The reason for the difference in output is simple. More oil provides a better seal between the ring and the cylinder wall.

Now, I realize that 18:1 is impractical unless you ride your engine all-out, keeping it pinned at all times. But running reasonable ratios no less than 32:1 will produce more power, and give your engine better protection, thus making it perform better for longer.
User avatar
Uncle Cracker
Posts: 38
Joined: June 22nd, 2007, 2:56 pm
Location: Yorba Linda, CA

Post by Uncle Cracker »

Every thing he just said is right on. If I put in too much fuel, not oil ,my bike will spooge!!!!!!!
Last edited by Uncle Cracker on June 26th, 2007, 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
AlisoBob
"Hoon-father"
Posts: 15404
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 6:39 pm
Location: Aliso Viejo Ca

Re: Pre - Mix 101

Post by AlisoBob »

AlisoBob wrote:
1. One small point. No one ever broke an engine by using too much oil.

2. And up to a point, more oil will provide a better seal.

3. More oil provides a better seal between the ring and the cylinder wall.

4. Running reasonable ratios no less than 32:1 will produce more power, and give your engine better protection, thus making it perform better for longer.
These were the 4 points that I wanted to reinforce.... Spooge wasnt.

Who cares if the bike spooges, as long as your making maximum power, while acheiving long engine life.

That should be the goal!

$.02
bigpower
Posts: 471
Joined: June 19th, 2007, 7:14 pm
Location: Kalkaska MI

Post by bigpower »

Another thing to ponder is that if you got a good amount of goo comin out the pipe to manifold area, and leanin the jetting up a bit doesn't get rid of it, it may be time to take a look at that right side crank seal. At least, that was a problem for me. I agree with the mix ratio stuff though, more oil aint necessarily a bad thing, but suckin it thru the crank seal is.
Kalkaska, the inbred capital of Michigan. ....a place you can walk into the greeting card aisle and find one that reads "Happy Birthday Uncle Dad"
User avatar
britincali
Posts: 8207
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 7:10 pm
Location: Barstow, CA

Post by britincali »

I replaced the seal on mine and it still leaked, I had to pull it all again to replace the seal AND steel collar.
Coolness list by 90cr500guy

Bob's = 50/50
Cepek = cool
Solidbro = cool
Brit = loser
Stoffer = 1 up from Brit
MFDB = cool
Danny = ok
User avatar
AlisoBob
"Hoon-father"
Posts: 15404
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 6:39 pm
Location: Aliso Viejo Ca

Post by AlisoBob »

The main thing I try to teach is to find the CAUSE of the failure.

If a crank seal is leaking, and simply replaced... the CAUSE ( like a grooved collar) will also fail the new seal as well.

Do some investigation folks... And do the job correctly!

Good tip big Power!
User avatar
MICK
Posts: 811
Joined: June 14th, 2007, 3:43 pm
Location: Destin, FL.

Who is Spanky??

Post by MICK »

Wow...that's a nice load of bullshit. I'll never argue the point that oil extends engine life...got it. But I'm throwing the bullshit flag on the rest of this dudes garb. This being the first explanation I've ever heard of more oil producing more power?? Sure dude, and I'm a monkeys uncle. Oh and how about that oil residue in my crank case...yeah, the shit I burn out during warmup. At 50:1 no less.
You know for every subject matter expert there's 100 guys that can bullshit a story so well it almost makes sense. For exampe, Spanky. Thanks for your two cents though high speed. I enjoyed it :lol:
'03 CR500 powered by...umm...a new motor?
User avatar
britincali
Posts: 8207
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 7:10 pm
Location: Barstow, CA

Re: Who is Spanky??

Post by britincali »

MICK wrote:Wow...that's a nice load of bullshit. I'll never argue the point that oil extends engine life...got it. But I'm throwing the bullshit flag on the rest of this dudes garb. This being the first explanation I've ever heard of more oil producing more power??

Oil does make power, ring seal makes a big difference :wink:
Coolness list by 90cr500guy

Bob's = 50/50
Cepek = cool
Solidbro = cool
Brit = loser
Stoffer = 1 up from Brit
MFDB = cool
Danny = ok
User avatar
MICK
Posts: 811
Joined: June 14th, 2007, 3:43 pm
Location: Destin, FL.

Re: Who is Spanky??

Post by MICK »

[/quote]


Oil does make power, ring seal makes a big difference :wink:[/quote]

If you've got to seal the rings with oil go kick the dude that honed your cylinder in the nuts. I understand it helps a little. But gas makes power too. And alot more so then damn oil does. 18:1 is half as much dang fuel as 36:1. If you believe that produces more power I got some ocean front property to sell ya in AZ.
'03 CR500 powered by...umm...a new motor?
User avatar
britincali
Posts: 8207
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 7:10 pm
Location: Barstow, CA

Re: Who is Spanky??

Post by britincali »

MICK wrote:


Oil does make power, ring seal makes a big difference :wink:
If you've got to seal the rings with oil go kick the dude that honed your cylinder in the nuts. I understand it helps a little. But gas makes power too. And alot more so then damn oil does. 18:1 is half as much dang fuel as 36:1. If you believe that produces more power I got some ocean front property to sell ya in AZ.

You missed the point completely, when more oil was added to the mix he INCREASED jet size to compensate, the same amount of gas is going through whether it be 5:1 or 100: 1.
Coolness list by 90cr500guy

Bob's = 50/50
Cepek = cool
Solidbro = cool
Brit = loser
Stoffer = 1 up from Brit
MFDB = cool
Danny = ok
User avatar
MICK
Posts: 811
Joined: June 14th, 2007, 3:43 pm
Location: Destin, FL.

Post by MICK »

:lol: :lol:
Right you are...and more oil too. 18:1 is 18:1. Doesn't matter how fat on the main you are. You're adding every bit as much more oil as you are fuel.
'03 CR500 powered by...umm...a new motor?
User avatar
MICK
Posts: 811
Joined: June 14th, 2007, 3:43 pm
Location: Destin, FL.

Post by MICK »

Ok so I just read this dudes thoughts on jetting. So apparently running twice as much oil and fat jets doesn't constitute as a rich setting that causes the combustion chamber to run cold and not completely burn the air fuel charge. So what the hell is TOO rich?
'03 CR500 powered by...umm...a new motor?
User avatar
britincali
Posts: 8207
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 7:10 pm
Location: Barstow, CA

Post by britincali »

MICK wrote:Ok so I just read this dudes thoughts on jetting. So apparently running twice as much oil and fat jets doesn't constitute as a rich setting that causes the combustion chamber to run cold and not completely burn the air fuel charge. So what the hell is TOO rich?

Too rich is when you get excessive incomplete combustion and it costs you power, an air fuel ratio below 13:1 is normally to rich.
Coolness list by 90cr500guy

Bob's = 50/50
Cepek = cool
Solidbro = cool
Brit = loser
Stoffer = 1 up from Brit
MFDB = cool
Danny = ok
User avatar
AlisoBob
"Hoon-father"
Posts: 15404
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 6:39 pm
Location: Aliso Viejo Ca

Re: Who is Spanky??

Post by AlisoBob »

britincali wrote:
You missed the point completely, when more oil was added to the mix he INCREASED jet size to compensate, the same amount of gas is going through whether it be 5:1 or 100: 1.
Brit has this one spot on.

Any yes, allot of oil helps make power, and adds life to the motor.
User avatar
MICK
Posts: 811
Joined: June 14th, 2007, 3:43 pm
Location: Destin, FL.

Post by MICK »

:lol:
Show me.
'03 CR500 powered by...umm...a new motor?
User avatar
britincali
Posts: 8207
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 7:10 pm
Location: Barstow, CA

Post by britincali »

MICK wrote::lol:
Show me.

Read the first post....... :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Coolness list by 90cr500guy

Bob's = 50/50
Cepek = cool
Solidbro = cool
Brit = loser
Stoffer = 1 up from Brit
MFDB = cool
Danny = ok
User avatar
MICK
Posts: 811
Joined: June 14th, 2007, 3:43 pm
Location: Destin, FL.

Post by MICK »

:x Negative...
I said "SHOW"
The first post means shit to me. A flurry of opinions typed by a man who goes by spanky.
I want to see technical data from an outfit that makes a living testing oil and it's effects in a single cylinder two stroke motor.
I'm sure such data that supports mr. spanky is difficult to come by. Because he's onto something nobody else in the business understands. But when I SEE it, and I am looking myself, I will promptly stop in and admit defeat. I'm anxious to find material both supporting and unsupporting his claims.
'03 CR500 powered by...umm...a new motor?
User avatar
dannygraves
Posts: 8020
Joined: June 1st, 2007, 2:03 pm
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Post by dannygraves »

I've experienced it first hand! Now I will never run more than 32:1 oil, because thats just excessive. I have a supertt buddy who has been working on 2 strokes his whole life and he said he run 80:1 chevron oil with great results (he ran different oils at different mixtures and tore the motor down, 80:1 chev gave cleanest motor with a good coating). So I ran this in all my bikes and my cousin did the same and we never blew anything up, and never had any problems and saw really good power. But we always rode trails, which gave a lot of slow periods to build up more oil. I started riding the dunes on my 500 and notices after shooting up banshee hill, or comp, I would bog a loose a lot of power until the motor ran slow for a couple iof minutes.
I was riding with Justin one time and has heat issues and jetting issues, and some knocking, so he lent me some gas mixed at 44:1 100 octane running ansoil dominator. I no longer had my power loss after a long run and the bike seemed to run cooler and was easier to start hot. the is even without any jet adjustments, so I was actually running a leaner fuel-air mixture.
I used to think exactly what you are talking about and used to tell everyone they were doing it wrong. But now I learned for myself. Putting around crazy trails slow, then launching up a 40ft hill, then putting around again is fine at 80:1, but I only run 927@44:1 at the dunes.
'09 kx450f 4-Poke
Gen-4 trail bike --SOLD--
Gen-3 badass trail/mx bike --SOLD--
Gen-1 built dunes bike --SOLD--
'05 klx110 --SOLD--
'95 pw80
Image
ou812
Posts: 794
Joined: June 22nd, 2007, 12:41 pm

Post by ou812 »

we always rode trails, which gave a lot of slow periods to build up more oil. I
Bingo we have a winner

There is no magic ratio, it's all application. I have heard of guy's running 1/8 mile drag s with radical 750 kawi tripples at 100 to 1, the thing is under load for only 6 seconds so heat builds ain't much of a issue. At the same time a highly tweeked KT 100 motor runs 16 to 18 to1 , that were their happy.

If you trail ride a CR500 beleive me your ratio can be quit a bit differant from a guy supermotoing a CR500 on a large roadrace track.

Mick run what ever you want whats the worst that can happen, sticking it is not the end of the world unlees your at the end of a 100mph straight and it does it just as your knee goes down.
User avatar
britincali
Posts: 8207
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 7:10 pm
Location: Barstow, CA

Post by britincali »

Dont forget the 500 inherantly needs less oil than a 125 :wink:
Coolness list by 90cr500guy

Bob's = 50/50
Cepek = cool
Solidbro = cool
Brit = loser
Stoffer = 1 up from Brit
MFDB = cool
Danny = ok
User avatar
dannygraves
Posts: 8020
Joined: June 1st, 2007, 2:03 pm
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Post by dannygraves »

britincali wrote:Dont forget the 500 inherantly needs less oil than a 125 :wink:
I ran my 125 at 80:1 and never had a problem..... All application and riding style.
'09 kx450f 4-Poke
Gen-4 trail bike --SOLD--
Gen-3 badass trail/mx bike --SOLD--
Gen-1 built dunes bike --SOLD--
'05 klx110 --SOLD--
'95 pw80
Image
Spanky
Posts: 12
Joined: June 21st, 2007, 6:57 pm

Post by Spanky »

pool cleaner wrote:Every thing he just said is Bull Shit. If I put in too much oil my bike will spooge!!!!!!!
Then you have a jetting problem. The amount of oil in your mix has nothing to do with spooge.

Someone asked for supporting data. How's this?

http://www.maximausa.com/technical/lube ... er2001.pdf

And this article, although a bit dated, establishes a clear relationship between pre-mix ratios and power production.
And I'd like to see the rider here that is bold enough to say that Grdon Jennings doesn't know what he's talking about...
http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/do ... remix6.pdf
User avatar
MICK
Posts: 811
Joined: June 14th, 2007, 3:43 pm
Location: Destin, FL.

Post by MICK »

Thank you spanky, I was reading this last night. But...I thought you would provide supporting documentation to your claims.

Quoted from Maxima,

"A single piston 500cc 2-cycle engine used in a motocross application will lubricate just fine and provide optimum power with a 50:1 oil ratio, because of the slower rpm's this big single piston engine turns at."

It's not a damn secret guys run slightly more oil and a bit less depending on application. But there is NO reason to use more oil then 40:1 in a 500. EVER. This 18:1 crap (even in a 250) is bulloney.

Try again spankey :lol:
'03 CR500 powered by...umm...a new motor?
User avatar
Uncle Cracker
Posts: 38
Joined: June 22nd, 2007, 2:56 pm
Location: Yorba Linda, CA

Post by Uncle Cracker »

It's good to see so much debate over how much oil too use. If your engine is jetted right and thats a BIG "IF"., 36 to1 is about the limit. you can go to 50 to 1 if you have good oil. it does depend on how you use your bike.(altitude, O.A.T, load, C/R, etc..) If your bike has goo coming out your pipe, you are too rich, period!!!!!!! If you doubt this then, here you go. If you run a 4 stroke too rich you will load the the cylinder up foul the plug, and run very bad. 2 stroke engines make allot of power, but need additional lubrication. if you run 50 to 1, but are way off on you jet, you will see goo coming out of your bike. It is what it is. too rich is when you are down on power due to incomplete combustion, and what you see coming out of you pipe as goo is really products of unburned combustion.
Spanky
Posts: 12
Joined: June 21st, 2007, 6:57 pm

Post by Spanky »

MICK wrote:Thank you spanky, I was reading this last night. But...I thought you would provide supporting documentation to your claims.

Quoted from Maxima,

"A single piston 500cc 2-cycle engine used in a motocross application will lubricate just fine and provide optimum power with a 50:1 oil ratio, because of the slower rpm's this big single piston engine turns at."

It's not a damn secret guys run slightly more oil and a bit less depending on application. But there is NO reason to use more oil then 40:1 in a 500. EVER. This 18:1 crap (even in a 250) is bulloney.

Try again spankey :lol:
I suppose you just didn't happen to read this part of my article, eh?
The common misconception is that mix ratios are "one-size-fits-all", when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.The amount of oil that is correct for one rider on his bike may not be enough oil for another rider/bike, or it may be too much oil. It all depends on engine displacement, riding style, and how hard you push the engine.
Post Reply