fuel injection

fiveohmatt · Post by **fiveohmatt** » October 5th, 2009, 12:44 pm

Hey if anyone is interested In trying to make a grass roots fuel injection setup for there 500 I have some 41mm keihin throttlebodies complete with fuel injector and fuel rail.
let me know if anyone wants pics.
Matt

ISBB · Post by **ISBB** » October 5th, 2009, 2:08 pm

has this ever been ran in a 500? got pictures ride video? results?

fiveohmatt · Post by **fiveohmatt** » October 5th, 2009, 2:18 pm

no this is just a throttlebody and injector you would have to come up with a management system like megasquirt or other ecu.
the setup is from a set of r1 throttlebodies which I have broke down.

dannygraves · Post by **dannygraves** » October 5th, 2009, 2:37 pm

you'd probably have to do a sepparate oil injection system. injectors are picky about the weight of the fluid running through them.
my new 450 is FI, you could probably use that basic system to make it work, just put 2 pickups on it so that it will inject and spark twice as often. It could be done but it would be a shit load of work for a marginal gain.

fiveohmatt · Post by **fiveohmatt** » October 5th, 2009, 4:30 pm

dannygraves wrote:you'd probably have to do a sepparate oil injection system. injectors are picky about the weight of the fluid running through them.
my new 450 is FI, you could probably use that basic system to make it work, just put 2 pickups on it so that it will inject and spark twice as often. It could be done but it would be a shit load of work for a marginal gain.

yeah i hate to send them out to the scrap yard and i need the space in the shop. it would be a lot of work but hey it would be different.

dannygraves · Post by **dannygraves** » October 5th, 2009, 4:39 pm

if the 4 TBs are still together, go on some CB750 boards, those guys use those to go FI for a turbo conversion, I know a guy with a cafe racer cb750 turboed and I think he used crb954 or 1000rr TBs.
atleast you could sell them to someone who would put them to good use.

as a side note, I had a very clean cb750 I was planning to cafe out, but the wife doesn't liek the idea of me riding street... I think that might be from when I borrowed my friends r1 for like 2 weeks and everyday I came home shaking

topping out 6th on st rose pkwy gets pretty sketchy

Post by **AlisoBob** » October 5th, 2009, 5:32 pm

dannygraves wrote: It could be done but it would be a shit load of work for a marginal gain.

What gain??? The 250'fs are all still carbed, because they cant tolerate the hp loss with FI on a dirtbike.

fiveohmatt · Post by **fiveohmatt** » October 5th, 2009, 5:41 pm

[quote="dannygraves"]if the 4 TBs are still together, go on some CB750 boards, those guys use those to go FI for a turbo conversion, I know a guy with a cafe racer cb750 turboed and I think he used crb954 or 1000rr TBs.
atleast you could sell them to someone who would put them to good use.

as a side note, I had a very clean cb750 I was planning to cafe out, but the wife doesn't liek the idea of me riding street... I think that might be from when I borrowed my friends r1 for like 2 weeks and everyday I came home shaking

topping out 6th on st rose pkwy gets pretty sketchy

[/quote. they were missing a few odd ball parts that they needed to work together so i ripped them apart after i measured them and saw they were 41mm

NightBiker07 · Post by **NightBiker07** » October 5th, 2009, 5:58 pm

AlisoBob wrote:
What gain??? The 250'fs are all still carbed, because they cant tolerate the hp loss with FI on a dirtbike.

the 2010 crf 250 is fuel injected.

if the injection created power loss, then why did they move to FI in the 450's?

dannygraves · Post by **dannygraves** » October 5th, 2009, 7:05 pm

Bob, come ride my FI 450, then ride anyone elses 450. guys are reporting dynos of 52 WHP. they run a larger TB than the carb because it can correct any accelerator pump setting the ECU dishes out instead of having the limitations of physical linkage. also the AFR is always perfect regardless of elevation or temp. so even though a perfectly tuned carb and fi side by side will not have to terribly different of a power delivery, try taking them out to the real world when the temps and elevation change during a ride. you have been quoted hudreds of times saying "your carb will never be perfectly tuned" my FI is ALWAYS perfectly tuned

Making it work on a 500 is way more work than bringing jets with you and dealing with it blubbering when you get to the top of the hill. Buying a new bike w/ EFI=freaken awesome!

dannygraves · Post by **dannygraves** » October 5th, 2009, 7:07 pm

there is only one downside to the FI that I noticed at dumont... there is a slight delay when you really get on it (drag racing) but I think that is tuned in to help reduce accidental throttle jerks which would otherwise buck you off. I bet I could tune it out with the FI calibration kit or the powercommander kit.

MICK · Post by **MICK** » October 5th, 2009, 7:59 pm

NightBiker07 wrote:the 2010 crf 250 is fuel injected.

if the injection created power loss, then why did they move to FI in the 450's?

1. Anything Hon-Duh builds is garbage. Their bikes are NOT the standard which to compare others to...haven't been for many years. Like so many mistakes Hon-Duh makes, looks like I get to laugh until I'm blue in the face about these cheez dick CRF250 riders now..."Jeepers Scooby-Doo, I gots me some FI on the 'ol CRF250. Next step...Factory Ride!!"

2. They didn't get any power from the FI alone on the 450. Near as my experiences can tell, FI helps most with throttle response and mitigating flame outs. But of course Hon-Duh couldn't figure that out either so it made no difference

What ever Kawasaki is doing with their FI, I like. Danny's bike for instance, that's the kind of throttle response and stump pulling torque I'd expect from an open class bike...2 or 4 stroke. Hon-Duh just doesn't fucking get it.

dannygraves wrote:my FI is ALWAYS perfectly tuned

I think you speak a little soon Danny. Sure as gravity, Fuel Injected fourstrokes crap out daily at the tracks. FI didn't sweep jetting under the rug completely...or atleast it hasn't yet. It replaced small socket and philips head screw drivers with expensive computer diagnostic equipment. Same problems...different (more expensive) fix.

dannygraves · Post by **dannygraves** » October 5th, 2009, 8:28 pm

MICK wrote:
NightBiker07 wrote:the 2010 crf 250 is fuel injected.

if the injection created power loss, then why did they move to FI in the 450's?
1. Anything Hon-Duh builds is garbage. Their bikes are NOT the standard which to compare others to...haven't been for many years. Like so many mistakes Hon-Duh makes, looks like I get to laugh until I'm blue in the face about these cheez dick CRF250 riders now..."Jeepers Scooby-Doo, I gots me some FI on the 'ol CRF250. Next step...Factory Ride!!"

2. They didn't get any power from the FI alone on the 450. Near as my experiences can tell, FI helps most with throttle response and mitigating flame outs. But of course Hon-Duh couldn't figure that out either so it made no difference

What ever Kawasaki is doing with their FI, I like. Danny's bike for instance, that's the kind of throttle response and stump pulling torque I'd expect from an open class bike...2 or 4 stroke. Hon-Duh just doesn't fucking get it.

dannygraves wrote:my FI is ALWAYS perfectly tuned
I think you speak a little soon Danny. Sure as gravity, Fuel Injected fourstrokes crap out daily at the tracks. FI didn't sweep jetting under the rug completely...or atleast it hasn't yet. It replaced small socket and philips head screw drivers with expensive computer diagnostic equipment. Same problems...different (more expensive) fix.

ok, so I phrased that wrong... I will never have to rejet for temp or elevation changes. it will run the same tune calibrated for the changes automatically. If I have an issue with the stock tune, then the tools I previously mentioned are available and give you FAR more control than any set of jets or needles ever will with full timing and fuel adjustments throughout. I can add or remove timing or fuel in tiny or huge increments and by a combination of rpm throttle position and vacuum. And they also log up to 6 hours of riding and give you full stats all charted out. you can see what rpm you are in most, see when you are shifting, what throttle position is at certain intervals, etc. to determine maybe the spot where you would like to add/remove timing or fuel. The ONLY one of these features that a carb can even come close to to adjusting based on throttle position, that is it, then its all trial and error.
hell, I can save tunes, make a dunes tune requiring race gas with timing through the roof, then a standard tune for MX and trails, and maybe a mellow torquey tune, running slightly rich for ST, etc etc.
But so far I've ridden open trails and ST and absolutely loved the tune, I really liked it in the dunes and only had the hesitation problm in the drags. also it runs nice and lean and snappy, the head pipe is blue all the way to the slip on, but it hasn't dropped a drop of coolant, even mobbin the dunes in 80-90* temps.

dannygraves · Post by **dannygraves** » October 5th, 2009, 8:34 pm

nothing expensive is needed to diagnose problems, like most never cars there is a diagnostic light, if there is an error code it will flash the code. If there is a messed up wire, connector or that item itself, it will trip an error code for that item.
only expensive thing is the fuel pump, they even used the exact same injector as used in the zx10r, so the injector would be easy to find and not too pricey especially if you hunt down one on ebay or something.

britincali · Post by **britincali** » October 5th, 2009, 8:39 pm

Do they have an o2 sensor?

dannygraves · Post by **dannygraves** » October 5th, 2009, 8:46 pm

no, its speed density w/o o2, so it cannot automatically adjust for VE changes like a MAF system. for example it you added a pipe, or put in some different cams or a high CR piston you'll have to remap. I'm pretty sure the powercommander has an option to add a wideband. Cars with o2 sensors only use them for closed loop cruising mode to run as lean as safe, infact almost at stoich, there is no need for a lean cruise mode on a dirtbike. Although, it would be nice to be able to log the a/f for building your map.

MICK · Post by **MICK** » October 8th, 2009, 3:47 pm

dannygraves wrote:nothing expensive is needed to diagnose problems, like most never cars there is a diagnostic light, if there is an error code it will flash the code. If there is a messed up wire, connector or that item itself, it will trip an error code for that item.

I guess my point is...so what can you do on the trail when an FI light starts blinking and the bike starts running like crap...or not at all? Will any tool on your personal kit bag fix the problem?

I think the first risk mitigation step is to not buy a Honduh...wow I have nothing good to say about that company anymore, sad.

dannygraves · Post by **dannygraves** » October 8th, 2009, 4:00 pm

MICK wrote:
dannygraves wrote:nothing expensive is needed to diagnose problems, like most never cars there is a diagnostic light, if there is an error code it will flash the code. If there is a messed up wire, connector or that item itself, it will trip an error code for that item.
I guess my point is...so what can you do on the trail when an FI light starts blinking and the bike starts running like crap...or not at all? Will any tool on your personal kit bag fix the problem?

I think the first risk mitigation step is to not buy a Honduh...wow I have nothing good to say about that company anymore, sad.

x2

flynfrog · Post by **flynfrog** » October 25th, 2009, 7:27 pm

There would also be the problem of powering it off of CR500 You would have to add a battery and CR250 ignition.

How much are you looking to get out of them Id like to try to FI my duke some day.

fiveohmatt · Post by **fiveohmatt** » October 28th, 2009, 9:25 pm

flynfrog wrote:There would also be the problem of powering it off of CR500 You would have to add a battery and CR250 ignition.

How much are you looking to get out of them Id like to try to FI my duke some day.

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fuel injection

fuel injection