CR500AF Name - Trademark or Just Words

[AUSSIECR500AF]

To my fellow riders,

We live by the 2-stroke, we breath the mixture, we ride the ultimate and we honour all that is given to us between the palm and feet. However, one thing that really pisses me off is the so-called trademark of the name "CR500AF" name.

To enlighten all readers, I have sent countless e-mail to Service Honda (AJ) pertaining to the "so called" trademark rights to the name CR500AF. To date, all reponses have been all legal jargon and no substantial evidence to support their allegations. I have asked for their trademark patent number, I have asked for their legal contact details in order to confirm their allegations, yet to date, I am still to receive any substantiated evidence to support their allegations.

I come from a business legal background and will respect the law and those whom honour and respect it, BUT when those who claim proprietry ownership yet cannot support their "so called" allegations I have nothing but disdain for them.

In no way and I saying Service Honda are shonks. They do build quality bikes and they do have a reputable name in the market. I don't think anyone would disagree with me. They did build the dream but economics dictates that if there is a market for a product or sevice, a profit can be made, barriers to entry are not too high, its worth competing on. Oh, and to try and monopolize on the name is simply a way of asking for trouble.

Based on this, many of us have gone out and built our own dreams. For someone to DICTATE to the us that we cannot call it a CR500AF is utter bullshit. SH go on about the hours spent designing their brand name" but I argue the fact the so too has everyone else. They should be able to sell off the SH name as oppsed to the CR500AF name.

I hope you will all join me in ensuring we all use the term CR500AF when selling our bikes.

As I said to AJ, No evidence to support their "so called trademark" no leg to stand on. Show me the evidence and I will respect it. Till then, words are simply a means to create a perception. Unfortunately, I live by reality.

[AlisoBob]

This was a hot topic awhile back.... I think it left off with....

1. There is such a thing as an "Implied" trademark. You dont have to file for it. If you have been using a trademark in your business for any considerable time, the courts will uphold its yours.


BUT

2. If there is confusion in the matketplace regarding your implied trademark, and you dont file for legal version of it, it is considered abandoned....and up for grabs.

I would say S/H is in the later stages of this situation.

I always use A/F

Its splitting hairs at this point.

[Caseys500]

I like to call my bike an AFC, AF conversion...that's what it is, an aluminum framed conversion. SH doesnt use the word conversion anywhere in their name...
When I was coming up with stickers to have made (as decals) I really liked the CR500AFC that I came up with...but I just think it looked better with the word conversion written out rather than attached as a "C"...Thus, my avatar.
I think they are more worried about people selling home made bikes with the CR500AF logo...which I understand because people will think it is a SH unless they are told otherwise. Then people call to order parts from SH and the parts dont quite line up or other issues like that. I think that is the main reason for the for the claims, just to make sure that people know that they dont have a SH and try to hold SH responsible for a bike they didnt make.
The thing I dont get is...I could take a Harley Davidson sticker and put it on my bike...that doesnt make my bike a HD though.

[teemtrubble]

AF is SH's TM it does matter to them for marketing and sales.

As for me I don't want my conversions confused with any other manufacturers bikes

Because when you ask for "trubble" this is what you get!



Need I say more?

[Ported&Polished]

From a business standpoint I can understand why SH or another company cares about using the AF term. From my point of view, it's a bike, I ride it, I don't call it anything untill I'm typing about it. If anyone asks, it's a cr500 in a cr250 frame. If they ask if it's a SH, I say no. If they ask who built it, I say I did. And in casual conversation, it's an A/F, period.

[AlisoBob]

From a business standpoint I can understand why SH or another company cares about using the AF term. From my point of view, it's a bike, I ride it, I don't call it anything untill I'm typing about it. If anyone asks, it's a cr500 in a cr250 frame. If they ask if it's a SH, I say no. If they ask who built it, I say I did. And in casual conversation, it's an A/F, period.

yup.

[AlisoBob]

Because when you ask for "trubble" this is what you get!


Need I say more?

Mike, I'm glad you fab and weld, better than you spell ....



( )

[2weelz]

Hahaha, short bus...good one, Billy Bob.

[teemtrubble]

I'm glad you can type better than you can read!

How does this read Bob?

[sabreguy]

This is why when I finally get an AF mine will be (most likely) a CR250OS it could be a CR125OS or even a CRF250XOS OS being ON STEROIDS because that is exactly what these bikes are they are still whatever they started out to be 125, 250, 450 or whatever they just now have a 500 engine in them!

Just my

[redrocket190]

Branding is about creating a term - symbol, word or phrase - in the customers mind and attaching favorable values to it. The ultimate goal is to create a product category that is named after your product and you have a brand leadership position (think iPod). CR500AF, or AF alone are far to generic to achieve this goal, whether they are legally defensible or not. The BMW M classifications springs to mind as an example of this approach that works, but of course BMW is the real brand. Service Honda is a better brand, but is of course not specifically related to the bike - but rather a business. Google "Trout and Reis" for some interesting stuff on branding and how even big companies really cock it up.

[iggys-amsoil]

99.9% of the time the first Q asked of me is, "Is it a Service Honda?" No its not.

So I thought I'd try it on a four wheeled version and see what happens.

[AUSSIECR500AF]

Spot on, people ask if its a Service Honda not an AF. Everyone knows there are many AF's out there but the question they seek answered is "is it a SH". The branding is in the SH name, not the term AF.

But, we all know that SH does not mean its the best AF out there. Yes, they build quality bikes, yes, there will always be one that falls short of their quality standards, but I have seen many beautiful creations on this site that will blow anything made out of a factory. Well done lads and keep the dream alive!

[AlisoBob]

...but I have seen many beautiful creations on this site that will blow anything made out of a factory. Well done lads and keep the dream alive!

[redrocket190]

AF, AFX Junior -X, Service, and the Service wrench logo are tradmarks of Service Honda (sic) according to the Service Honda web site.

http://www.uspto.gov/index.html
This is where you search for trademarks that are already registered.

If one is that interested either way....

[AUSSIECR500AF]

Yeah, I can write that I am the best rider on the planet, doesn't mean I am.

I have checked the trademark site and could not find any reference to the term CR500AF. SH can have the wrench and the rest of us can use a rod and piston logo. After all, its not the wrench that makes the bike so awesome but the bore and stroke.

[AlisoBob]

After all, its not the wrench that makes the bike so awesome but the bore and stroke.

[AJ]

We live by the 2-stroke, we breath the mixture, we ride the ultimate and we honour all that is given to us between the palm and feet. However, one thing that really pisses me off is the so-called trademark of the name "CR500AF" name.

the main point here would be..seriously, why on earth would it piss you off?

did henry ford trademarks of the model "T" piss you off?
why the heck not?

did yamaha's trademark of YZ?

I advised you for real accurate answers to contact a real IP attorney ,
and that woulkd quickly answer your questions and your angst?

why after that amount of time you havnt ,on something that obviously is
still i bothering you i dont know..

sorry, that it offends you that it is a trademark.
sorry i came up with a name that causes guys to get worked up for some reason
and sorry bro,
but that is a bit odd to get pissy about.
why would you even care?
specifically could you tell me why it bothers you?
or makes you pissed?

i piss my wife off a lot,,but at least i understand why most of the time!! lol


because i have to admit- that not once in my entire life,
has it ever bothered me when someone had any given model name
and they dint expect anyone to use it commercially.
its understandible,and its the law.


and bob,lol man, why even bother to split hairs?
the truth is if you want to call a REAL IP attorney,
he would gladly set the record straight.
and a/f wouldnt cut it , if you were manufactuering similar bikes with
that in thier model name

its far more simple than that,and everyone understands it.

how about for fun,
you try making a Y/Z250F
and see how far yamaha lets you slide.

not very far ,, is my bet..
want vegas odds on it?

try C/R 500 (honda ois far more *jumpy* than yamaha..)

so why all this fuss. on something so fundamental?


trademark law in its fundamentals,is mostly to protect the consumer,
not the trademark holder.
(yes it has provisions for both parties, but at its root is written towards protecting the consumer)

hey ,what the heck.
i'm sure this will be another long bash AJ and SH thread..
so have fun guys.,,
lol

and hey heaven forbid a company takes the time to make and market a model..for eover a decade, and expects other companies to stay off thier trademark.

as far as guys building thier own.. not as a business..selling them. what difference does it make?

the model T doesnt piss me off..neither does the KX or RM..

if some trademark of any model ever does ..
i'll know its time to take a midol and go riding..

which is what i'm doing tomorow and sunday..

(without the midol, well unless henry ford's model "A" suddenly
and inexplicably starts to really piss me off ,I mean a simple letter,or letters like that ,are hardely marketable? right? lol)

relax ,its just a nexample..
but a slightly relevant one.

ok i'm out to go riding,
i hope you all have a good fathers day weekend.
and get to roost around a bit..

[britincali]

i'm sure this will be another long bash AJ and SH thread..

lol

Your the one who dug up a dead 4 month old thread

[AlisoBob]

Your example for the Model T , is a poor one. You see, "Model T" IS a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f= ... r6aagt.2.9

Owner (REGISTRANT) FORD MOTOR COMPANY CORPORATION DELAWARE The American Road Dearborn MICHIGAN 48121
Attorney of Record ELIZABETH JANDA
Prior Registrations 1946033;1946034;1947553
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


Search the TESS database for:

CR500AF
CR500 AF
CR500 A/F

You get this.....
"No TESS records were found to match the criteria of your query."

If you called it the " Dirt Squirt", or the " Mega-Rooster" I dont think anyone one would care...

To me, "CR500 AF" is a noun. It is, what it is... A CR500 Aluminum Frame bike.

To me, if you really cared , you would register the name, and stop the debate on your end.

By the way.. "YZ" is registered:

(REGISTRANT) Yamaha Hatsudoki Kabushiki Kaisha CORPORATION JAPAN 2500 Shingai Iwata-shi, Shizuoka-ken JAPAN
Attorney of Record Robert C. Faber
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

[AJ]

brit

lol man,,
take what shots you can bro..

it was on page 2..specifically about my stuff.

i just glanced thru the ones with
service honda or others of interest....
thats would be strange to do eh?

at the very least the subject is something i should have true interest in.

the original poster cant even say that.
why not reflect on that?

but i know , i know, i bite the heads off kittens..

but one thing i dont often do,,
is worry about things like trademarks ,or other peoples work,
that have no impact on my life..


its obvious that more than a few here,,do let those kind of things bother them..thats ok, and this was just an attempt to understand "why"



why not?

[AlisoBob]

I have sent countless e-mail to Service Honda (AJ) pertaining to the "so called" trademark rights to the name CR500AF. To date, all reponses have been all legal jargon and no substantial evidence to support their allegations. I have asked for their trademark patent number, I have asked for their legal contact details in order to confirm their allegations, yet to date, I am still to receive any substantiated evidence to support their allegations.

Is this a real post AJ? Did you receive these requests?

[AJ]

bob,
again you only post what you understand, and thats not much of IP trademark law.

you think it must be registered..
and the "tm" by it. to count.
that is not accurate.

also you d onot understand th eapplication process or whe nth elitt eTM or R is issued an dwhy.

find out ,and THEN debate me with accurate info?

also "you" thinking tha tthe model name is just a noun.
isnt going to play against the tradmark laws.
they require a bit more..
and yes i have spoken to many IP attorneys,
and know what is required,when and why.

when you can honestly say the same, we will completely agree,
so why the debate in the first place?
because its fun i suppose


honestly if you think the name was some kind of common , usage
it just shows that you wernt paying attention or around during the early years of this.
i was asked for YEARS weyther it was my initials, ,or any number of questions abou tWHY i called i tthat,,by media ,by customers,,etc.
if you dint think so, you dint live it, i did.
and yes they would always laugh and "get it" after isad wha tit stoo dfor.




The mode lT was an example of a letter,
and yes , a well marketed one.

and in the context of motor vehicles.
as such its a perfect example.

i actually thought yuoud appreciate the irony.. of a single letter,,
like the model "A"


when is the date ? of that model T trademark?
the day the model was introduced?

the truth is, it wouldnt matter.,
it would be fords trademark regardless.


if you dont understand how, or why that could be..
then contact someone who can explain it well...
i'm not an IP attorney , nor do i play one on TV

fun stuff i guess..

[AlisoBob]

bob,
Again you only post what you understand, and thats not much of IP trademark law.

I understand Trademark Law perfectly. I understand the concept that your "Trademark", while un-registered, is valid and defendable in the eye of the courts.

What I dont understand is your attraction to the drama surrounding the name. If you took the time to REGISTER it, their would be no debate..... period.

....end of story.

[teemtrubble]

i piss my wife off a lot,,but at least i understand why most of the time!! lol

Me too lately! but, I don't know what I did!

Being the guy I am, I have to say something to say like always, and I'm with AJ on this one... I don't use the term "AF" it's Service Honda's designation and I have my own wheather it's a registered trademark or not.

A trademark or trade mark (represented by the symbol ™)[1] or mark is a distinctive sign or indicator of some kind which is used by an individual, business organization or other legal entity to identify uniquely the source of its products and/or services to consumers, and to distinguish its products or services from those of other entities. A trademark is a type of intellectual property, and typically a name, word, phrase, logo, symbol, design, image, or a combination of these elements.[2] There is also a range of non-conventional trademarks comprising marks which do not fall into these standard categories.

The owner of a registered trademark may commence legal proceedings for trademark infringement to prevent unauthorized use of that trademark. ***However, registration is not required***. The owner of a common law trademark may also file suit, but an unregistered mark may be protectable only within the geographical area within which it has been used or in geographical areas into which it may be reasonably expected to expand.

The term trademark is also used informally to refer to any distinguishing attribute by which an individual is readily identified, such as the well known characteristics of celebrities. When a trademark is used in relation to services rather than products, it may sometimes be called a service mark, particularly in the United States.[3]

Bob your point is noted and I agree.