10:1 comp ratio on pump gas (maybe)

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2strokeforever
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10:1 comp ratio on pump gas (maybe)

Post by 2strokeforever »

heres the idea 2 or 3 spark plugs in the head so you can run 10:1 comp on 91 octane

and acordng to alex graham bell for every 10% more comp you can get 4% more power on a 2 stroke... so raise comp 50% to 10:1 = 20% more power =13 hp

the hard part would to get 3 plugs go off at exactly the same time
Researchers have found that it is the gases at the very outer limits of the
combustion chamber, called the 'end gases', that self-ignite to cause detonation. These
end gases are heated by the surrounding metal of the piston crown and combustion
chamber, and also by the heat radiating from the advancing spark-ignited flame. If the
spark flame reaches the outer edges of the combustion chamber quickly enough, these
end gases will not have time to heat up sufficiently to self-ignite and precipitate
detonation. Herein lies the key to prevent detonation — keep the end gases cool and
reduce the time required for the combustion flame to reach the end gases.
Rapid combustion has other advantages besides controlling detonation. With an
increase in combustion speed there is, of necessity, a corresponding decrease in spark
advance. The closer to TDC we can ignite the charge, the less negative work we have to
do compressing a burning charge that is endeavouring to expand. Also there is less
energy loss in the form of heat being transferred to the cylinder head and piston crown.
Heat is the enemy of two-stroke engines and stretching the compression ratio to
give a 10% power increase will possibly result in a 3% power rise at the most; the rest
will be lost in heat energy and pumping losses. However, at lower engine speeds the
cylinder will not be completely filled with fuel/air mixture and the power may jump by
5-6% because there is not such a heat loss. This is, in fact, the real benefit of raising the
compression ratio, not to increase maximum power but to pick up mid-range power
and possibly widen the power band.



heres my (kinda) idea to have 3 spark plugs go off at the same time so the flame front has 50% less distance to travel and bump the compression 50% = 13 extra horsepower no mileage loss and happy with 91 octane

this has been used on zabel 685cc 2 strokes but with 2 plugs in 1 bowl

the zabel has its comp published @ 11:1 but I think thats uncorected , corected it would be 5.86:1

Image


Image

stock the flamefront has to travel 1" my idea is to have the ff travel .666" (50% less)so i can raise comp 50%

blue is squish band
green is "bowl"
orange are spark plugs

Image

does anyone have a 10:1 comp cr 500 whats it like does it gain power

if this really works and somone makes money off it they owe me 2 of them
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thestuz
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Post by thestuz »

i like the idea of one plug.
cleaner burning and a more even squish band.
all the extra electrics you would need and the shape of the new head design would probably make it run worse.

the point of the squish band is to centralise the burn to gain earlier/cleaner burn, decreasing temperature on the piston and reducing the chances of detonation.

your 3 plug design would go against all of this.
do it!... cos if you dont, youll spend the rest of your life thinking about it anyway!

01 CR500
98XR600
94 FIREBLADE
ESTABLISHED 1977.
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thestuz
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Post by thestuz »

the engine pictured has a plug at the rear which helps keep the exhaust side of the piston cool.
these plugs prob work seperatly at different rpms. not sure if they would fire at once.
yamaha had this idea on its early it,s
it never really caught on.
do it!... cos if you dont, youll spend the rest of your life thinking about it anyway!

01 CR500
98XR600
94 FIREBLADE
ESTABLISHED 1977.
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Roostius_Maximus
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Post by Roostius_Maximus »

you need an old actric cat coil with single input and 3 wires, i'll see if i have any left, i do have some 2 cyl ones too
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2strokeforever
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Post by 2strokeforever »

this would be easier to make and work almost a well


Image[/img]
these plugs prob work seperatly at different rpms. not sure if they would fire at once.
no they definatly go off at the exact same time

the point of the squish band is to centralise the burn to gain earlier/cleaner burn, decreasing temperature on the piston and reducing the chances of detonation.

your 3 plug design would go against all of this.
alexander graham bell disagrees
Rapid combustion has other advantages besides controlling detonation. With an
increase in combustion speed there is, of necessity, a corresponding DECREASE in spark
advance. The closer to TDC we can ignite the charge, the less negative work we have to
do compressing a burning charge that is endeavouring to expand. Also there is LESS
energy loss in the form of heat being transferred to the cylinder head and piston crown.
When LESS heat is conducted to the head and piston, the engine runs cooler and
makes more power.

my idea will definatley reduce detonation because the flame has to travel only half the distance
If the
spark flame reaches the outer edges of the combustion chamber quickly enough, these
end gases will not have time to heat up sufficiently to self-ignite and precipitate
detonation. Herein lies the key to prevent detonation — keep the end gases cool and
reduce the time required for the combustion flame to reach the end gases.
The most obvious step that would satisfy the second requirement is to make the
combustion chamber as small as possible, and then place the spark plug in the centre of
the chamber. Naturally the combustion flame will reach the end gases in a small
combustion space more quickly than if the chamber were twice as wide
increasing the compression gives a better burn (and more power)
and the because of the faster burn i can retard the timing
and it tranfers LESS heat t he piston and head

the whole object of a squish band is to reduce flame
travel to a minimum so u can run higher comp,less spark advance,and cooler with the same detonation protection

flame travel distance is why a yz125 can have 11:1 on pump gas and a cr500 will detonate before 7:1 bigger motor makes sense to have the same flametravel and comp thats partly why a 500 dosent have double the power of a 250


the only disadvantage I can think of is making the thing and if 1 plug dies you will get instant super angry detonation
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thestuz
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Post by thestuz »

my Quote:
the point of the squish band is to centralise the burn to gain "earlier"/"cleaner" burn, "decreasing temperature" on the piston and reducing the chances of detonation.

your 3 plug design would go against all of this.




your Quote:
increasing the compression gives a better burn (and more power)
and the because of the faster burn i can retard the timing
and it tranfers LESS heat t he piston and head

the whole object of a squish band is to reduce flame
travel to a minimum so u can run higher comp,less spark advance,and cooler with the same detonation protection


what i said is what you said but i didnt explain it as well.sorry for the confusion
Last edited by thestuz on April 8th, 2010, 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
do it!... cos if you dont, youll spend the rest of your life thinking about it anyway!

01 CR500
98XR600
94 FIREBLADE
ESTABLISHED 1977.
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Post by LOVEMYCR500 »

I have 14:1 compression but run race gas, I know guys say more compression equals less rpms on top, I just don't agree with this, it all depends on port timings and other factors. Depending on exhaust port timing, I don't know why you couldn't run pump premium gas with 1 spark plug as long as the head was set up correctly (squish band) and your jetting was correct.

The only reason I see for running multiple spark plugs would be if you are running a different fuel (alky or nitro) and you are pushing so much fuel that at certain RPMs the fuel is putting out your spark plug flame and you get the mid to top end engine sputters by this. That's one reason the NHRA top fuel drag people have to run multiple plugs. The larger the bore, the tougher it is to make power. Some people think just because it's a large motor being a single cylinder, it should be very powerful. It can be, but it really takes someone who knows what the are doing make a large single cylinder motor perform like a twin or a triple of the same size mainly because you are fighting many factors and one is what you discribe in your post. I'm more impressed with a builder of a very powerful single vs the same twin cylinder builder.
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2strokeforever
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Post by 2strokeforever »

heres proof more plugs= more power if your motor idles @ 1000 rpm and you loose 100rpm from going from 2 to 1 plugs thats 10%

if i had a 500 right id be making 1 right now but i only have $10070 right now need $11300 for shcr500af:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



On a 4 stroke Aircraft engine, you typically loose 50-150 RPM, when testing with single magnet ignition.
i know its a 4t but the results should be the same
ill post it when i make one
rsss396
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Post by rsss396 »

more compression doesn't improve combustion but does add heat to the combustion chamber which does help speed the combustion process.
This can be a blessing or a curse depending on your needs.
But 2-spark plug motors per cyl are pretty common today in the snowmobile world and I think there is a benefit to them.
I think you may be some what disappointed in the gains but I do feel there will be a gain just not as much as you think.
I would go with a 2 spark plug setup myself,
and I believe Kelsey at RK Tek could build you one.
I believe that he use to be a cr500 guy but his business is centered mostly around snowmobiles.
Take a look at his billet removable dome heads for sleds and have him build one for a cr500. He is one of the best guys out there for properly setting up a 2 stroke head.
Here is a link to one of the heads I am talking about:
http://www.2strokeheads.com/arcticcat-m8-m10.htm
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