AlisoBob's Gen 4 A/F Conversion

[glen howell]

123

[AlisoBob]

Thanks

[KE 336]

Damn, this is kinda a sad turn of events.

Bob, were you able to remove the top end in frame like you hoped? If so, was it a pain in the ass or not a problem?

[100hp honda]

[AlisoBob]

Damn, this is kinda a sad turn of events.

I dont know if that's true on not.

I think Glen has a greater understanding of what the sites members are expecting from him, and he stood behind his work to the point of replacing my parts with new ones. Shaking things up from time to time keeps people on there toes. You can bet GSS will not just double check, but triple check everything now.

Theres still many members who swear by his stuff. Fast Kart runs his stuff at 9,000 rpm all day, no issues with power or reliability.

I think that it was unfortunate that I got the parts that I did, but better me than someone else.....

I think everyone learned a little bit from this, and its going to be better for everyone from here on out.

I have no issues with Glen, and I hope he dosent with me.

This is was founded on telling truth, and will contuine to do so.

Glen understands that.

Its all good.

As far as my bike, its been too hot to go dick with it, I'll let you know once I get to it.

[iggys-amsoil]

Well its a moot point now that the parts are going back. Nobody noticed this?

I'm more interested in the pin hole above the plug hole?

Issue #4 is head. Its beautiful....

[britincali]

I figured it was a casting flaw

[AlisoBob]

I must be riding faster or something.... because the braking bumps at the Elsinore GP were killing me....

I ordered the whole Race Tech package....

Gold Valve kits and Twin Chamber Pressure Springs.

God knows HTF its going to handle once I'm done.

I'll post up all the info as it happenes.....

[rippenyrass]

What is the compresion ratio with that head work now?

[AlisoBob]

Well, I've looked into all this suspension shit for a week....

Conclusion? Its all a bunch of bullshit, mostly smoke and mirrors, and nobody can agree on anything. Starting with the fork oil itself.

It seems there are allot of misunderstandings about fork oils, starting with the industry themselves by using official standards that do not apply well to fork oils (SAE lubrication oil weights like 2.5wt, 5wt, 10wt). Not only that, but many fork oil manufacturers don’t bother providing the correct standards that best characterize what "Fork Oils"are primarily are.... hydraulic oils. Then they stir in their own bullshit, made up labeling, and occasional truths found here and there...… and you end up throwing your hands up in the air in disgust!!!

My main issue in the term “viscosity” and the tests used to measure it.

The big point I have to offer is this: even though there is a “Stamp of Approval” (i.e. SAE) doesn’t mean the viscosity scale is anywhere near appropriate for fork oil. Is it completely wrong? No, but my research has led me to believe SAE weights gloss over some important details on fork oils.

SAE numbers are computed at 100 degree C ( 212 degrees F.). WTF? My fork oil can cook French Frys?? I think not. I looked around the web and came across this chart. It measures many fork oils at a more realistic temp, 40 degrees C ( 105 degrees F) and the results are startling...





An example??

Torco RFF "5 Weight" is "4" weight at 100 C and "11" weight at 40 C
PJ1 "5" weight is "5.4" weight at 100c and "31" weight at 40C !!!!

WTF is that about, nearly 3x thicker???

Look for your favorite oil, and check this chart out for your self!!

My forks currently have Showa Suspension Fluid ( SS-5) in them

Its a "5" weigh with 3.6 wt. @ 100C and 15.7 wt. at 40C

Just by changing to Redline "Extra Light" I could cut my damping in half, or by going to Bel Ray "7 Weight" I could double it.

This is insane!!!! Even you you love the valving and set up that you just paid $500 for, in one fork oil change done at the house ( even if you use the same "weight" oil ) you just screwed everything up.

MAKE SURE YOU KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT THE FORK OIL YOUR SUSPENSION GUY USES, DONT SCREW YOURSELF!!!

Where does that leave me? I just want my forks a little looser. Instead of plunking down big bucks for custom valving or Gold Valve kits, I'm going to swap out fork oils...

I'll start with the Torco RFF "5" weight and see what happens. Its about 40% thinner at 40C and slightly heavier at 100C than what I run now,

I'll post up the results....

[Roostius_Maximus]

thats the most relevant post to suspension i've ever seen

[gregrobo]

i never even questioned the oil companies before and wish i had of seen this before i lashed out 680 for the goldies

[AlisoBob]

The "Viscosity Index" is how stable the oil is over a broad temp range....

Thinning at high temps and thickening at low temps. The higher the number, the better.

Look at Golden Spectro, among the highest rated oils out there .

That shit was available when Jesus rode bikes....

I guess thats why its still around..... good stuff.

Maxima?? The worst. Under 100.

Numbers dont lie.

[cmotodad]

Not to cause trouble. I have done some suspension testing with a friend that owns a suspension shop. We can have a valve stack aand oil level that is very good only to have it turn to crap with an oil change. One brand suspension fluid with the same rating reacts completely different than another with the same rating. My point is when you get the oil level and valving working to your liking, make sure to replace with the same companies fluid. Fork seal also can change the reaction of your action too.

[AlisoBob]

Motodad Bob, if you got something to add........ by all means chime in.

Your experience is exactly what I'm talking about.

The SAE rating for viscosity has little to do with real world viscosity.

Suspension tuning can and will be night and day different with 4 different oils, all rated SAE 5 wt., installed in the same forks.

[100hp honda]

i dont see atf on the list

[kdizzle]

Good post on the viscosity -


I have changed between Belray, Ohlins and Showa fluid and have not noticed a bit of difference in fork performance, and didnt even change a clicker, and I have a very very custom setup in my AF. My good friend and riding buddy owns a suspension shop and has spent lots of time on them. However I have always changed the oil in both forks at the same time.

The gold valves are the first "smoke and mirrors" that are sold to unknowing guys looking for suspension. The large valve showa stuff found on 04 and up CR's and CRF's do not need these gold valves and a properly shimmed 3 stage setup will work as good as anything.

Find a guy that will come to the track with you and if he rides with you even better. everyone needs something different due to riding styles, weight, bike and setup. Also throw in the fact we are on development bikes (af's) and you dont have a chance in hell of sending out your suspension to a shop and having them send back something that works as good as it can.

Once upon a time I sent my entire setup to RG3 at a price of nearly 1000$ and the fucking things worked worse then when I sent them out. When i called to discuss, they blamed my riding on the suspension problems. WTF? when my guy opened them up they had a shitty ass single stage shim setup and those gold valves. My guy threw them straight in the trash and put back in the stock showa valve.

Get a guy to build you a custom setup for your style and bike. Not saying someone couldnt get the gold valves to work, but it still needs the right shim stack with the right fork springs.. My 2 cents

[hoofarted]

When Dewayne did my Gen2 forks/shock 7...8 years ago, he had his own concoction of oils he used to work with the valving he installed. I didn't get too technical with him - but remain extremely happy with them after all this time. I have ridden new bikes and still prefer the behavior of mine to them...and they're just twin chamber Showa's. And yes, he too said the gold valves are a crock. You call him yet Bob? He'll rap your ear off, but really does know his suspension shit IMO.

[AlisoBob]

Your fork oil is 8 years old?

[hoofarted]

No - the valving is. I had the forks and shock serviced routinely. And the oil only becomes gravy if it gets contaminated....busted seals, etc..

[Roostius_Maximus]

When Dewayne did my Gen2 forks/shock 7...8 years ago, he had his own concoction of oils he used to work with the valving he installed. I didn't get too technical with him - but remain extremely happy with them after all this time. I have ridden new bikes and still prefer the behavior of mine to them...and they're just twin chamber Showa's. And yes, he too said the gold valves are a crock. You call him yet Bob? He'll rap your ear off, but really does know his suspension shit IMO.

he takes a valve out and runs it all thru the mid if i remember right

[AlisoBob]

http://www.amazon.com/TORCO-RFF-FORK-LI ... 587&sr=8-1

So I order this YESTERDAY from Amazon, shows up today.

Roosty says its cheaper than his JOBBER price.

I like Torco already... says right on the bottle that " Not all brands of 5wt. oil will behave the same under similar circumstances........"

Wow, the truth. Good job Torco!

When I get my forks off, I'll move this to the suspension forum...

[dubious01]

deserving another bump... too bad we couldn't cut the fat out of this thread....its pretty deep...

[AlisoBob]

I'll clean it up tomorrow.... its never going to stop raining....

[Roostius_Maximus]

it better not end up with 200 posts saying "123"